To the question presented in class, "What's wrong with Father Flynn?," I think that there was more to his death than the stroke. The sisters say that Flynn started going mad when he broke the religious chalice, and he was seen by others laughing at the confessional (thus showing his decline in mental stability). The boy's mother also questions if Father Flynn received Extreme Unction, and the boy's dream depicts Flynn moving his lips as if confessing. All of these indicators make it sound like the priest must have committed some sort of sin that perhaps further led him to death. However, because we discussed that there was no sort-of closeted transgression between the boy and the priest, I'm not exactly sure what type of sin led to his demise.
In terms of the title, "The Sisters," the two sisters of Father Flynn merely try to take care of the priest before his death. They seem like good-hearted woman when they talk to the boy's mother, and describe that Flynn passed away peacefully and looked beautiful in his death. I think the title may be related to the sisters because of the overarching themes of religion and its correlation to the state of Ireland. The sisters care for the priest (who probably sinned himself - showing the decline of Christianity/Ireland) but are unable to heal him, possibly showing that the state of Ireland or the institutions in Ireland are in disrepair.
I agree with what Judy said aside from the part about the sisters. I think that the sisters refer to the pairing of birth and death. Here we have this child who is exploring his world and trying to figure out where he belongs and then we also have this old man who is his mentor. I think that in order for this child to move on with his understanding of the world, his mentor must die and he will be reborn in a sense to be able to think and reason on his own. I think that the concept of birth and death being paired together fits and would make sense in order for this young boy to be able to progress to become a mature human being.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, I think we also see the boy's immaturity and inability to grasp the concept of death when he wants to see if Father Flynn is smiling. I assume that people have always told him that death is a happy place which is why he looks for this and why he is confused when he sees the solemn look on the father's face.
Finally, I think that the fact that Father Flynn was a little off could be do to some sort of corruption within the church such as some financial problem or something along those lines because we have already discussed that its not sexual. I think that this sort of sin could paralyze a person and make him act out of sorts. Also, I think that it could fit because the church was very much tied to the government in Ireland which is why there was such a problem in terms of Protestant vs. Catholicism.
I definitely agree with Judy's summation of the main questions we discussed at the end of class, so to avoid repeating, the young boy's reaction to the death of Flynn. I would also agree with your point on the boy not feeling the usual remorse that one would feel following the death of a friend. In rendering this youthfulness in the young boy, Joyce effectively communicates to the reader that this is the child who is going to progress through the 4 different aspects of life (childhood, adolescence, maturity, and public life). In regards to Bri's comments, I really liked her explanation of the Sisters and of what they represent. I would definitely agree that there could be a thematic connection between the two, with one representing birth and the other representing death. As we discussed in class, Joyce's writing style is one of "scrupulous meanness," which he uses in order to render a balance in sympathy and objectivity. For that reason, as we progress through the novel, we'll have to constantly ask ourselves "What is the basic person saying?" Adding on to the purpose of opening the novel with a story of a young boy experiencing the loss resulting from a friend's death, Joyce sets the rest of the novel around this life-changing experience. Finally, I have to admit that the story overall is still pretty confusing, because Joyce hints to different things by pointing to different details and making suggestions, but he never truly tells us what it is he is saying.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with all of the above. I also think it is important to note the way the first section was written. We start off with a simple linear narrative that is fairly easier to follow, with no shift in narration. Additionally, as katie mentioned, the young boy does not really feel the remorse that usually accompanies death. Thus, the fact that the first story is mostly stating events as they happened and less about how the narrator's internal conflicts represents the stage of childhood where complex emotions and abstract concepts cannot yet be grasped. I believe as the book progresses the narration will become more complex as we move from childhood to adulthood.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what was said above, especially Judy's summation of the various questions discussed in class. Also in terms of Father Flynn, the sisters do say " The duties of priesthood was too much for him. And then his life was, you might say, crossed". In terms of religion, a cross could symbolize the cross of jesus, and how he was locked and pinned to it when crucified. This could then allude to Father Flynn being stuck into the position he was in, and unable to get out of it, and could be one of the results to his death. Also there is this idea of paralysis, repeated to describe the word the boy is playing with to understand, and also used to describe the dead corpse. Paralysis does mean unable to move, or this idea of being paralyzed and so in a way the boy's reaction is paralysed and he is unable to react to his "friend"'s death, just like how in life and in death, Father Flynn is unable to speak. He wants to confess in the boy's dream, but never speaks, nor is he ever shown speaking when alive, only nodding, bringing us back to this idea of paralysis, where his lips are shut, and he is unable to confess what truly lead to his death. The sisters never speak of it either, which makes it curious to, because then they too are in this paralysis where they can't express what keeps being hidden.
ReplyDelete*** I just also wanted to add to Marie-Louise. When the boy and his aunt go visit the sister's house to see the open casket, they are both also not able to speak or eat which also connects to the theme of paralysis. So in addition to paralysis being connected with death. I think Joyce is also trying to say that it is connected to religion as well.
ReplyDeleteNot to be repetitive but I agree with the above statements especially Brianna's about the sisters being birth and death. When we originally read this, I assumed that they were some sort of version of the fates but at deeper inspection, as there is only two of them and they do not tell a fortune, I agree that they are most likely birth and death.
ReplyDeleteAbout the boy's reaction to Father Flynn's death, I think that he was trying to reconcile this coming of age event in which he experiences a profound loss but he is unable to have a real response to it because he has not yet matured to the point where he can understand death.
I also think that Father Flynn's main sin may have been turning away from the church. While he may not have actively walked away, by breaking the chalice it seemed to serve as a symbol of his estrangement from the church, at first he is horrified by his actions but then he almost embraces it and begins to laugh at church and goes a bit crazy.
The paralysis described in the book seems to embrace most of the characters. The boy is paralyzed the the point where he cannot even speak when he is at Father Flynn's funeral. Father Flynn is paralyzed by the church, etc.
I agree with the above statements, and hope I am not being repetitive. I throughout Brianna's comment of the two sisters was very interesting, and it defiantly makes sense. We know that the first sections of the novel is about childhood, so it is interesting to pair what some would argue the two biggest events in our live- birth and death- together. They are sisters because they essentially come together in pairs, one cannot be born and not die, and you cannot die without being born. The author seems to be mirroring the concept of birth- represented as the young innocent child- and the concept of death- with the death of Father Flynn.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of the boy’s reaction to Father Flynn's death, I think that it explains and demonstrates what it means to be a child, young, innocent, and unable to comprehend many difficult ideals like death. He is too young to understand, probably to young to see his friend in a coffin, and needs much maturing like a child would.
I think the problem with Father Flynn was that he was insane because of some sin he committed, like Judy said it was not anything with the child, but it had to be something that he would cause him to loose his mind. It might have something to do with the church or maybe it was his betrayal of the church or church doctrine, either way I hope to find out soon.
The theme of paralysis was also introduced very early on in the novel, which make me think that it has extreme importance, but also that it will be a continued theme among all the characters. In the first chapter we saw Father Flynn paralyzed in death, the boy paralyzed because of death. I think that it will affect each character in a different way, and maybe culminate together at the end of the novel when everyone dies- since the title is entitled death. Also it could have something to do with the down declining, and being paralyzed in an old fashion way- just a guess.
There were a lot of good points made above. I think it's really important to look at the early version of 'the sisters' in the back of the book. The most interesting differences, I think are as follow: First, when introducing Cotter: "I was not surprised, then, when at supper I found myself a prophet" (237). In the final draft, Joyce makes Cotter sound like a complete idiot - a person the reader is meant to hate. Next, there's the change from Uncle John to Uncle Jack. John is affiliated with priesthood. He's also the man who supposedly baptized Jesus. This baptism is meant to purify a person, especially in 'live water' (running water, like a flowing stream etc). Third, he doesn't describe the body as beautiful. He describes the death as beautiful, but the as grey, solemn, copious, unsmiling, and vested for the altar (242). Also interesting to note is what isn't changed: the names of the sisters remain Eliza and Nannie. Ms. Siegel discussed in class how the book was meant to progress as a human would develop. So, this chapter should either be the 'baby' being conceived (first real beginning), being born (first time entrance to the world), or being baptized (first entrance into the spiritual world). I'm not really sure what this chapter is meant to symbolize in that progression, or how the differences relate - but Joyce was clearly very careful about every word he used, so there must be a reason for the discrepancies.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone have any ideas about why the differences between the earlier edition and the published/finished one? Or what actual part of the progression the readers are being introduced?
Also, why "the Sisters"? If we're going to start with the beginning progression of a child, than that progression begins with our mothers. The chapter 'A Mother' isn't introduced until page 136. Why structure the book that way? Sisters could mean nuns...I'm not sure...I'm sorry to just throw questions at people, but I'm really curious to see what other people think!! :]
I think Christina and Marie-Louise have both made important insights on the recurrence of paralysis in this story. Aside from their inability to speak, the characters also appear to have trouble performing simple tasks, like eating. The narrator and his aunt both refuse to eat very much while visiting the Flynn home. For example, the narrator describes: "She pressed me to take some cream crackers also but I declined because I thought I would make too much noise eating them" (15). The narrator’s explanation seems weak, as if he is hiding a deeper reason for his inaction. Thus, paralysis affects not only words, but also actions.
ReplyDeleteChristina also made a nice point about the style in which the story is written. It is very objective and simplistic, which may be indicative of the initial stage of development (i.e. childhood).
I agree with Judy about the cause of Father Flynn's death. Flynn clearly experienced some deep mental trauma that may have affected his will to live. If he was depressed or otherwise unsatisfied with his life, he could have had physical problems that may have led to his death. However, despite these probable causes, we cannot truly conclude the cause of his death.
So I think Judy's questions have been answered throughly, both by her and the people after her. As I result, I will focus on Leah's questions....
ReplyDeleteThe differences between the old edition and the final edition:
In the final edition, Cotter seems like an idiot. Mr. Cotter represented all those people that attacked or looked down upon religion within Dublin. As a result, he was rediculed and made to seem foolish because the people of Dublin still believed in and defended their religion. However, although Cotter seems like an idiot, there is some truth in his words and possibly Joyce believed there was some truth in the words of the people who were against religion.
Next, I believe that we are still being introduced into the birth stage during the first chapter. Joyce wrote the book as the development of Dublin. As a result, he believes that the death of an old and maybe even crazy tradition, religion, is dead (as seen by the death of Father Flinn). This death then allows for the birth of the "new" or rather more industrial city (at the time this book was published, 1914, Dublin was becoming more and more industrial).
As for the sisters, they clearly care for the narrator in some way; one of the sisters is named Nannie as in Nanny as in care giver for little children. But as for what the sisters actually mean is still unclear to me. Leah's idea of the sisters being connected to a nunnery makes sense but I still believe the first chapter represents a death of religion or in Ireland's case, Catholicism. As a result, I believe the sisters represent a sisterly bond and in context (the 1800s), the sisters might have acted as stand in mothers because the parents were too busy working. So in context, the children did not really develop a strong relationship with their mother until later in life. Also, in connection with the development of Dublin, the Irish people did not develope a strong relationship with their mother country, Great Britain, until later in the country's life.
btw, sorry if this seemed snappy but I am frustrated with my Paint-Doku right now.
So... I'm going to start by saying that I think we're way too obsessed with the perspective of James and the death of the old man. The title of the Chapter is "The Sisters," so the sisters clearly play a crucial role in this scene. If we look at things from the perspective of only the sisters, we notice a couple basic things. They have the last word in this section and they are the only ones who pretty much seem to talk about the Reverend and how he didn't really belong in the priesthood. "The duties of the priesthood was too much for him. And then his life was, you might say, crossed" (17). We see here that there was something lacking in himself that made him not fit to be that priest. We also see that his life was crossed. That's pretty key.
ReplyDeleteMoving on, I feel like this sin that everyone before talked about is pretty simple. It's this sin of having failed to do anything for the town. The "paralysis" sounds reasonable then because he failed to get the town moving and he thus has that stroke. He's the mentor of the kid, and so
Brianna was right is saying that he must die, but not so that the kid has a realization, but so that his will can be passed on (we'll probably see this later, what this confession is or whatnot).
The chapter is titled "The Sisters" because these two sisters tell us everything, at least for me. The uncle and those old guys just talk about the kid dying, and how James should not be hanging out with that old guy. We learn from James that he learned about the outside world from the old man (That's important in its own right in that this is how he learns about the outside Dublin world). The sisters though, tell us about the Reverend's life, which is so very important if we are to understand why this chapter is the first story of many to come. I would write more, but I think that it could ruin the purity of my comments and make me look bad...
Cedric the cross thing was mentioned by Marie-Louise and I feel that your "his life was crossed" thing was sort of funny but also kind of lame, because essentially you just repeated the quote. But I like how you're trying to reason the title out, and it is true that the sisters reveal information. Their presence also take up a large portion of their section.
ReplyDeleteWhile the industrialization argument is possible, I really don't see any evidence for it in the text, nor do I believe that industrialization was the main thing in Ireland at this time. This is the early twentieth century, and the industrial revolution in England was a century ago. I don't think Ireland was that far behind. What I do know is that the potato famine of about sixty years ago resulted in a lot of death and a lot of people immigrated out of the country. Perhaps this immigration will eventually be mentioned by Joyce, for such a loss of one's own people cannot be good for the development of Ireland. Therefore, Ireland (and Dublin) is indeed behind, but not in industrialization in my opinion. To gain ground with other countries Dublin has to grow, despite the sickness that killed or ejected many people in the famine. Father Flynn's death may be representative of the time that religion failed (it could not save those lives). This whole famine theory is based off little textual evidence, only off historical background. I think we must wonder WHEN Joyce is deciding to start his moral development of Dublin's folk, for then we can more surely interpret events of history to actually relate to the book, instead of supposing, as we are here.
Julia commented that Flynn experienced something that depressed him and took away his will to live, and Judy noted that he may have committed some sin. Again, Julia noted that Flynn's death is uncertain. It is ambiguous, perhaps then because this is the childhood stage, and being so innocent and naive, the chapter does not reveal anything beyond what a child would naturally understand. Flynn's death is mentioned, yes, but children can know of death, and besides this kid is already drinking sherry!
Contrary to the laughing state in which they found him, Eliza said Flynn died peacefully. Perhaps his confession when they found him put him at peace. We must then question what he was confessing, in his seemingly delirious state. Father Flynn sounds like a really great guy from the kid's POV. Again, we are seeing this from the limited perspective of a child, so the rumors of the adults circle around and are confusing but don't really sink in, because children are often stubborn. I think Flynn might not have been confessing something he did, but rather the sins of Dublin or Ireland as a whole. Since this is a short story though, I'm not sure how future ones will connect to it or if we will hear mention of Flynn again. However, there is certainly something that is being withheld or hidden from the reader.
Derek, if the potato famine (dont know the exact date of the famine (modernish) you mention) was 60 years ago as you said, then the book came out first... So yeah... And i stand fast to my idea and i had a different interpretation of he crossed derek, gosh
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